Zulfu Livaneli was the guest in the program of “20. Saat” presented by Ozlem Gurses which was broadcasted on HaberTurk (a turkish TV channel) several months ago. This exclusive program that hosts renowed people has always appealed to me; this time, with its guest and the issue, the program was immensely intriguing. When the “Armenian issue” was pointed out towards the end of the program, the dialogue between Zulfu Livaneli and Ozlem Gurses reached its climax.

Having recorded this program which was broadcasted again that I recently happened to watch, I would like to share with you especially the final part of the program by transcribing without any alteration, and present my own comments in regards to this very fragile issue that is of high interest to me and my country.

O.Gurses : I was just thinking that recently you would strive about the Turkish-Armenian history that could usher in friendship?.. Because…

Z.Livaneli : I really desire that. Well, regarding that issue… Many people are upset, so am I. We have discussed it unnecessarily. That is to say, Turkiye has gratuitously hurt itself . The World War I… Recently in my office at UNESCO…

O.Gurses : I know you are an ambassador of UNESCO.

Z.Livaneli : I gave a speech in the ambassador meeting of  UNESCO in Paris. In a nutshell, I called for UNESCO’s help in this issue, for World War I is an epoch where each and every side that was involved profoundly suffered. A lot of sufferings... Well, Turks were killed, so were Muslims, Armenians were killed, Greeks were displaced and killed. Greek army assaulted here, villages were burnt, we attacked and saved the country. First of all… a period of extreme suffering… and I pointed out this there. The family of my wife, I said, comes from Rumeli, Manastir… The family was killed and the remaining managed to flee. Well, my family from Caucasus comes from Artvin... They were killed on the mountains there as a result of the Russian invasion... Now, there cannot be such a thing as the monopoly right of suffering!.. I can feel the suffering of my ancestors and mourn them. No one can say ‘You cannot mourn them’! In that respect, Armenians, too, can mourn their ancestors so do we, since they are our citizens. They are the citizens of the Ottomans. Let’s take the embassy in London for instance... Prior to the last 3-4 ambassadors or during the Ottoman period; Armenian ambassadors represented us continously. Ministers, Members of Parliament… are not they our citizens?... We should feel the sufferings of all those who were killed? Why are we engaged in this?... ‘that  was  wrong’, ‘that  was right’… ‘you also decapitate that’! We turn to Europeans now… ‘This does not prove it right!’.. In the end, we should all feel the sufferings, the common sufferings of a period marked by great grief, and mourn it. Chirac calls this “memory practice.” This is a cogent concept. We should do the memory practice for all our missing people. This is not for one thing…

Regarding this Armenian issue, I went to New York a number of years ago. I visited Ahmet Ertegün who was the boss of the Atlantic Records located in Rockefeller Square. Charles Aznavour was present there, too .“Just like the projects with Greece, you should do something with Charles Aznavour, a collaboration” said Ertegun.

O.Gurses : I wish…
 

Z.Livaneli: In fact it is do able; yet this thesis should be accapted in the world. You know that I have a wealth of experience in these issues. International conflicts. It is the easiest to start out with artists. If you start out with politicians for instance, you reach nowhere! You reach nowhere if  you start out  with journalists, too!.. Thus, it is not possible… Because I convened a Turkish-Greek media conference in UNESCO, Paris several years ago. I know what transpired.  Artists about the sufferings of  people...

O.Gurses : Are maybe more inclined to mediation …

Z.Livaneli : They are directed towards the sufferings of  people, human beings and individuals. They can more easily view humanbeings, that is, people regardless of their differences. Therefore, artists about this memory practice and a mourning spell; the field of psychology has it, do you mourn for the lost one, do not you?.. Here it is… Today in the article of Ertuğrul OzkOk, there was a correct concept. That is “Cherkez people marched holding carnations in their hands for their murdered ancestors in an effort to mourn them” mentions the article. “If everyone is mourning, I will also mourn my relatives killed in Rodop.” This way, Turkiye is undergoing such a fragmentation. I mourn my grandfather, and you mourn yours!.. It should not be like thatl… On this land we were collectively murdered, for the most part as a result of the ‘plans of emperliasm’, ranging from the Balkans to the Caucasus and the Middle East… Because ‘The Ottoman Empire was carved up in the most savage manner.’ It was exposed to a horrible sharing! It was unforgivingly demolished!.. During this break-up, millions of people were killed. Millions of people were displaced. Now to these, to all these innocent mothers, all coming to life from one mother, all becoming children, spouses, lovers. We should not discern all these suffering people as “You are Greek, you should suffer!”, “I am Turk, I suffer!” or ‘you should’ or ‘should not’!.. All people suffered, therefore, in memory of the deaths of all these peoples,  we should commemorate them with respect. This is the way out. This can be achieved to a certain extent by the art and culture..

There is a class in Harvard University in the name of ‘Conflict Management’... to solve conflicts... and the conclusion they reached is; “in international conflicts, art and culture should be encouraged” just like the Greece case in point.

O.Gurses : In that respect, do you feel responsible to do something?..

Z.Livaneli : Yes, I  do. I want to be beneficial... Thus, it is of course a worthwhile thing… it is very difficult now the ongoing... For instance, there is this Armenia-Azerbaijan confrontation. Well, the sufferings of Armenians are obvious, but Azerbaijanis now surviving in one million wagons having inhuman lives, as called “kaçkın” by Azerbaijanis… When you see one million people, who fled from Montenegro and are now living there, you feel a very high level of sadness! So, we should be sensitive to all the sufferings of people, not favoring one side. For this, there should be such a way and such artists  who can transcend all these! So, this cannot be implemented  with the cooperation of an Armenian artist who can say “ok, Armenia is right in Montenegro, and those one million people should take care of themselves!”… Our relationshoip with Greece has always been like that. Be it Theodorakis, or Faranduri, we have been heeding one point for 30 years. We advocated the rights of  Western Trakya Turks there while cultivating Turkiye-Greece friendship… It was a taboo that we challanged there. We went there and organized a concert for Turks. Now, we should continue with certain attention and balance. It may forge... It does not occur through force of course.
 

O.Gurses : Can there be a project in that sense…

Z.Livaneli : But this will cause us trouble, this Armenian issue…

O.Gurses : You know that… the other day, there was unfortunately an international conference at Bosphorus University... it was annulled…

Z.Livaneli : It should not have been called off. This was a great mistake, are you aware of it?.. Turkiye is a huge country where problems cannot be discussed; Turkiye is a big democracy with a populaton of 70 million!.. The biggest country in the region, the strongest country… with its robust army and institutions… So, it should not worry about the discussion of a topic. Remarks of  the Minister of Justice were also wrong. The topic should be discussed… Today, Okay GOnensin had an article I think… Selim Deringil as the dean of that department there…

O.Gurses : Yes the dean of the history department at Bosphorus University…

Z.Livaneli :  At Bosphorus University. “He is a historian against the genocide” he says. So, these people are not projecting any propaganda but reliable people. Murat Belge is also a trustworthy person. So, they are not the propogandists of anyting! But they can be on the opposite side, yet we should not behave in the way I mentioned a while ago. Because no one could say in Turkiye; during this horrible disaster of World War I, Çanakkale, straits, Trablusgarp, that is in the break-up period of the Ottoman Empire, many revered people… from each race, indeed they were all the Ottoman nation; “Ottoman citizens of different races  were killed. These are all revered, and what happened is a shame” once we say this, the issue will be resolved. Why can’t  we state that?.. I cannot understand it…

O.Gurses : In fact, it is a very easy sentence; yet difficult to state…

Z.Livaneli : Yes.

Once I watched this program, I said “Eventually, here is the much-needed viewpoint!” The perspective captured by Zulfu Livaneli regarding the Armenian issue, about which I am very sad personally and on behalf of my country, and his comments about the issue was very pointed.

I have had friendships with Armenians, whom I had the chance to meet in 1970's when I used to be a bank officer in Kurtulus neighbourhood, which have cultivated over the years and have been continuing for around thirty years. As I learnt them more and gradually became part of them, I started reading whatever books I could find both from Turkish and Armenian authors to seek answers to “Why have we been living with such a stigma? What is the truth? What were the antecedents?” This search has been like trying to complete a one-thousand-piece puzzle without having its outline picture. A number of months ago, delving into this topic was on the agenda, but I had refused it thinking: ‘such a protracted, entangled, and discursive topic which has been neglected for ninety years would not be fully covered and would appear unfair to one of the sides even if I tried to be objective and approached the issue with good intentions.’

When I listened to the stories dating back to the invasion period, where each family had in fact several martyrs, from the elderly in my family, I learnt about the coercion used by the invading forces to engage non-Muslims in athe atrocities caused; those attacking property and people by making use of the turmoil on one hand, and those who were murdered at the expense of protecting their neighbors on the other hand. These stories seem to be endless.

Afterwards, the statement of our incumbent political elites as: ‘Blood cannot be washed away with blood but water.’* notwithstanding, we had a period marked by Asala terrorist organization where ‘blood was washed away with blood.’ After every incident that transpired in that period, everyone, who is enough sensitive, got extremely upset.

I would like to emphasize that problems should be addressed; otherwise, they can lead to more horrific consequences. Neglecting an issue, pretending as if it does not exist, does not mean that it is non-existent or will be forgotten.

As laid out by Livaneli, we cannot reach anywhere through accusations and with the rhetoric “She said this, he did that.” Indeed, we reached nowhere.

The pitting of people, from disparate ethnicities under the rule of the Ottoman Empire which covered a large area of territory, against each other by the egregious plans might be inevitable. Most of today’s apologists of ‘civilization/human rights’ caused a turmoil in those years... They unfortunately succeeded. Congratulations!.. As mentioned by Zulfu Livaneli, during the declining period, in the dark days of World War I, Ottoman citizens of different races forcefully found themselves in catastrophe as a result of the ‘plans of emperialism’.

During that time, Armenians were also influenced by the intensive missionary activities carried out in foreign colleges that were formed in Anatolia for the so-called purpose of ‘education’. Such that, they successed in bifurcating Armenians into Catholic and Gregorian.

I learnt a striking fact about those artful, persistent, honest, and hardworking people, with whom I have been in contact for around thirty years, from the interview of Patriarch Mr. Mesrop Mutafyan published in Vatan newspaper. “The community, of which I am the representative, does not know the truth. We belong to the Gregorian Church. Russians made up that we belong to another one so as to underestimate us. In fact, we are Orthodox belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church” commented Patrik Mutafyan.

Recently, an Armenian gentelman who appeared on the program ‘5n1k’ which is broadcasted on CNNTürk said: “No one wants us to mend fences with you. This does not benefit them!” implying other countries.

Just because others do not want solidarity, unity, order, trust and stability, will we  have trouble with people who have been living with us for centuries, and have gone through all the good and bad days with us?...

Our identity cards encompass information like ‘religion’ and ‘nation.’ Leaving these aside, if we view ourselves and others in the way defined by Livaneli as ‘a person regardless of her/his differences’ and follow the axiom “do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” we will, for sure, spend our short time in this world, which can finish in a moment, in a more healthful, happy and serene way.

With his consistent life style, albums, comprised of quality lyrics and melodies unlike those of mainstream music, that have energized masses; most importantly, with his smiling face, positive attitude, and accurate sentences coming out his relaxing tone of voice, Zulfu Livaneli is an impartial person. In consideration of his contributions to the Turkish-Greek friendship, if there is a desire for the settlement of  Turkish-Armenian issue, he is the right person to tackle the issue in a calm and logical manner.

He is a person who suffered a lot from possessing ‘left ideology’ and was exiled for many years. He has nothing to do with feelings of hatred, and vengeance. Feeding this sort of destructive feelings into one’s mind destroys a person. And he is conscious of that…

Still, we can easily notice the reflections of jealousy towards the Ottoman Empire. Those, who came from distant areas and were defeated in the battlefield, now strive to win at the table. Out of the huge Ottoman Empire, that was carved up savagely, emerged tiny Turkiye; even that seems excessive for others. Divulging about the period can reveal facts that are subtle and complex. Probing the history of one side, or “you-I” confrontations do not bear any fruits in terms of mediation. 

We are located in such a geography that there are actors who always benefit from pitting us against each other, and exploit every issue for their own interests. We should not let ourselves be exploited any more. Sufferings of the past should not occur again…

Eventually, history has, all along, been written by ‘bloodshed!..’ I assert that; it is now time to find another ink. Time to be a ‘human being’ leaving aside languages, religions, races, and sects.